This bonus episode is the recording of the first monthly video chat Jonathan and Sy had with our incredible paid subscribers. Hear an engaging, lively conversation about:
- What to do when you are overwhelmed with the amount of terrible things you see in the news happening to marginalized people
- How White supremacy can make White people particularly anxious about constant, negative news
- Lots of tips and thoughts on how to approach church leadership in a realistic way about addressing injustice and politics from the pulpit
- Specific concerns about diving into politics in Asian immigrant churches
- Why it is important for pastors to name specific injustices from the front of church, even when there are sometimes legitimate reasons not to
- Plus a lot more!
Join us for our next monthly call with subscribers on July 23! You can register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZ0ocuysqDsrGdfW_GsVI4-h3EWoJXjiAVQ_#/registration
Credits
- Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.
- Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.
- Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.
- Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.
- Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.
- Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.
- Editing and production by Sy Hoekstra
Introduction
[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.” There is a second of silence, and the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]
Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to this bonus episode of Shake the Dust. This is maybe unexpected, because we're not in between seasons, but we are bringing you the recording of our June conversation that Jonathan and I had with our paid subscribers. We're going to be having these every month, and this is our first one that we had in June. It was a great conversation. So we wanted to bring the recording to you all. Everybody who was there agreed to be, consented to be recorded and published [laughs]. So we are sending it out. Obviously, we want everyone to be as comfortable as possible there. So if people don't consent, that's totally fine we just edit them out, but nobody wanted to be edited out this time. So here we are.
And as I said, it was a great conversation with a pretty diverse set of perspectives there. We talk about what to do when you are overwhelmed by the amount of suffering and injustice you see in the news that's happening to marginalized people, how White supremacy can make White people particularly anxious about constant negative news. Lots of tips and thoughts about how to approach church leadership in a realistic way, about talking about injustice and politics from the pulpit, why pastors need to do that, specific concerns when it comes to those issues in Asian immigrant churches. Just a whole range of stuff that was really great to talk about. So please do enjoy this conversation very much.
We will be having another one on July 23rd. The registration link for that, it'll be on Zoom. The registration link for that is in the show notes. We will be taking your questions as we did in this one and I will be talking a little bit about disability pride, because it is Disability Pride Month. What that means to me, we can have a little conversation around that. Before we jump into the conversation, a couple things though. Please share KTF Press as much as possible, as Jonathan and I have been saying. We don't know if KTF Press will be able to continue past kind of this election cycle if we don't get a much larger subscriber base than we have now. We just won't be able to afford continuing.
So if you value this work, which we know you do because you're able to listen to these bonus episodes [laughs], which means you're invested to some degree, please do share, however possible. We really, really appreciate that. And consider upgrading if you are a regular monthly or annual paid subscriber. You can always upgrade to our founding member tier, which will get you a free book, one of the two books that we published. You can do that by going to www.substack.com/settings and you just go to your publications, click on KTF Press, and there'll be a button there to manage or upgrade your subscriptions. You can't do that in the app, by the way. Do you know why?
Because if you do anything, if you pay for anything in any app on your iPhone, Apple takes 30 percent. Did you know that? If you didn't, that's your fun fact for the day. So you can't do it in the app, you can only do it on the browser [laughs], www.substack.com/settings, and then you just click on KTF Press and you upgrade or manage your subscription to become a founding member.
One quick note about this recording, we were trying to figure out the best way to record everybody and make it sound good. And we did do that, and we made it sound good. And one thing that I didn't know was that my screen reader was also being recorded in addition to everybody else.
You probably know that I'm blind and that I use a robot synthesized voice to kind of interact with my computer. So you're going to hear a robot voice at some point, just very briefly announcing like the time or something else to me [laughs] every now and then. I managed to cut a lot of it out, but it'll just pop up every now and then. So, you know, just say hi to my screen reader. All right, that's it. Then let's get to the conversation.
Screen reader: Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.
Sy Hoekstra: Thanks, buddy. All right, let's get to it.
[The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]
Sy Hoekstra: All right, I have hit go [laughter]. So thank you all so much for coming. We so appreciate it. This is really fun. Jonathan and I were just trying to come up with some other way to interact with some of our subscribers in a way that would be kind of, hopefully useful for you all and fun for us. This is the kind of thing that Jonathan and I both like doing a lot, just talking to small groups about stuff that is important, which is part of why we do a podcast. That's basically what the podcast is [laughter]. Talking to small groups about things we think are important. So, yeah, Jonathan and I have some stuff to talk about. We did get one question from you all from the form. Any questions that come up during the time, we totally, anybody can cut in with thoughts they have, put their thoughts in the chat.
You can use the raise your hand function. You can write stack in the chat if you're used to that from work things, I don't know. My office used to do that. And we'll just talk. Jonathan and I had some subjects that we put in that most recent email that we sent, that we thought to talk about, but we're also happy to address anything and everything that you all want to talk about. I said that too broadly. Now I say that and someone's going to come up with something I absolutely don't want to talk about, that's fine. [laughter] What else? I would say, there's not that many of us, but if you want to, keep in mind how much time you're taking up when you talk, that'd be great. Please feel free. In other conversation spaces like this, a lot of times, the rule we've had is step up and step back, meaning please participate, and then please just be conscious of how much time you've taken up.
I don't know, anything else, Jonathan? I guess we're getting a bit of an echo from someone. So I'd also say, if you can't keep… Oh, it's a dog, wonderful.
Jonathan Walton: It’s a dog. I cannot control the animals outside of this room.
Sy Hoekstra: Is that Snowbear?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, she's like on the other side of the house, wigging out about something [laughter].
Sy Hoekstra: That's fine. That's totally fine. Life is real. Jonathan and I, there have been some episodes you may have noticed where Jonathan's recording with like one of his children on his lap, and like [laughs], they've made their way into the outtakes.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And they have left colonized faith. They are not part of it.
Sy Hoekstra: Yup.
Jonathan Walton: Not participating [laughs] in our [unclear].
Sy Hoekstra: He solved it, Jonathan.
Jonathan Walton: Amen. Amen.
Coping with All the Negative News of Harm against Marginalized People
Sy Hoekstra: All right, cool. Jonathan, do you want to start out? You wanted to talk about just the sheer overwhelmedness of all of the things coming at marginalized people right now. I don't know if you want to get us started. I don't know, Jonathan, get us started however the Spirit leads you, you do these things better than I do. If you want to pray, or you want to do whatever, go for it.
Jonathan Walton: No worries. I do do these things a lot. So there's two things I just want to let you all know. One is that you're welcome to show up as you are. And the questions, proclivities, personality traits that you have, they're welcome here. Some of those things we not be able to perceive, but you know about that are welcome. So if you're like, “Hey, you know what I am…” I've been in calls where some people have ADHD, and if you're comfortable naming that, then we know or you give us tips for how to engage in ways that may be helpful. Like Sy cannot see very well, and so like naming for that. It's like if you put something in the chat, I'm going to be the one that's looking at the chat. But if I'm talking and you put something to chat, you may just want to say that out loud, because Sy’s not going to notice.
Sy Hoekstra: I do, I have access to the chat actually.
Jonathan Walton: Oh, you do.
Sy Hoekstra: I do.
Jonathan Walton: Okay, cool, cool. All of you is welcome. The messiness and the good stuff that you already know about. The second thing that I would say is I would hope that spaces like this, you don't just feel welcome, but you cultivate welcome for other people. So like I'm hoping that the hospitality that we receive, we're able to offer, and that this would become a sought after kind of fruitful space for people.
Sy Hoekstra: Amen.
Jonathan Walton: We may have a cool liturgy or something another time, but this is pretty casual. So I’d love to talk about and hear your thoughts on one of the things that that's going around in my mind right now is some of you follow me on Instagram, and I had just a lament around women and girls. So like I saw Butker, the kicker for the Kansas City Chiefs, his comments when he was doing a commencement speech at a conservative Catholic university. I was thinking about the “man versus bear” meme, and just add that the Reddit thread is long of just really hard stories from women. I was thinking about the SBC and the vote that they, quote- unquote, decided to take, but we all know that they believe the things, even though they voted against it.
And I was at gymnastics with my daughter. Like I was watching her turn into a little girl, and hopefully one day be a strong woman, and I just cried. Once you open the door for grief, all the grief comes out [laughs]. So thinking about the, it's Pride Month and how so many churches don't know how to talk about that in ways that are honoring and helpful to our queer brothers and sisters and family made in the image of God. And also the unrelenting, I mean, the algorithm has got me just like, there's just so much violence on my Instagram feed. So like Congo, Haiti, Sudan, Palestine, I'm somebody who is engaged and I'm overwhelmed, and I have tools and frameworks and all the things, but that's something I just want to name, is that if you are quote- unquote, engaged with the news and then engaged with our own families, we are not even talking about sickness in our own family, or death in our own families, or stuff that's just at our kitchen tables.
So I admit I feel overwhelmed and just wondering how you all are feeling processing the various global events and local events that are happening with you. So anyone want to speak to that, that how you're feeling processing things? Oh, and feel free to introduce yourself, because I realized we did not do that. So you could say your name and where you're at, and then feel free to answer that question.
Rana: I will respond to that. I'm in Southern California, and I am a contributor to Jonathan and Sy’s anthology, but unnamed, anonymous. And it’s been, I see you on LinkedIn Jonathan, and I see that you are really engaged. Anyhow, I know that it's very difficult for me to, you know, like just with… I'm Palestinian, and I have family in Gaza as well. Both my parents grew up in Gaza, and they were, my dad was a Nakba survivor and essentially my mom was, they left the year before, but they weren't able to return. So I still consider both parents and both families as refugees, because they still lived with the limitations of not being able to return. So anyways, but I can’t continue to consume all the news and it's just a struggle. I don't even know what to say.
I always tell my dad, my dad, he's in his mid-80s and he watches a lot of the news. And I tell him, “Dad, you were not created to take in this much suffering and sorrow and watch this all day long.” And I guess that's something I would say to you and anybody else, but I'm not an expert. I've been watching Palestinians since the 80s on TV growing up, but I don't claim to have the answers, but I would say that it would be important to protect your own mental health and well being. It doesn't mean that you disconnect from yourself. And I know for me it's also trying to show up, like I'm learning to show up with who I am, because I realize that there's a lot of pieces of who I am that have been silenced. So I feel like I'm trying to find my voice.
And if you remember, when I wrote the piece in the book, I struggled a lot with that, and that's something I've emailed you about or messaged you, but that's another conversation I just don't… I can't get to all of it, but there are things, there's conversations I want to have, there's things, but realistically, there's just, we're limited. Thank God. So, yeah.
Jonathan Walton: Amen.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.
Jonathan Walton: As you were sharing, one, thank you for sharing and saying things about who you are and how you show up. I really appreciate that. You all are gonna see this thing called a lead generation magnet soon [laughter], but it was literally written in response to that overwhelmed question [laughs] and the cover of it is a young woman holding a newspaper that's on fire. Like that's the image [laughs]. So just introducing this thing called pace yourself with the news, and pace yourself as you engage with injustice. So, yeah, it is easier preached than practiced.
Sy Hoekstra: This is an acronym Jonathan invented.
Jonathan Walton: Oh, it is an acronym. Pray, assess, collaborate and establish. Pray and lean into God, assess who you are, what he's given you, what's around you. Bring those things to then collaborate with other people, and then where you can establish rhythms and patterns for flourishing. And so it is much easier preached than it is practiced.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.
Jonathan Walton: And so definitely try to do that. Oh, David, Will, Allison, did you all want to say anything about that? Or we can go to the next topic.
Allison: My name is Allison, I live in Wisconsin, and I do have a little bit of adversity in my life as far as I'm blind, so I've had some challenges with that. But I also recognize that I'm White and I'm very well-off. I always had wonderful support networks and I'm really blessed. I probably watched too much news. I admitted I kind of watched, kind of been watching news all the time, taking in stuff all the time, and probably isn't good for my mental health. But then I also have this feeling of like paralysis as a person who is, you know, White, well off, I have this sense that I should be doing something, I should be doing something. But what? What? So it sounds like almost like by watching the news, it's like I feel better because I think I'm doing something, even though I know I'm not really.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].
Allison: But it’s like I struggle with this idea of when I see my friends just laying on the beach or going to a silly movie or something, like how can you engage in that frivolous [unclear] and stuff when this world is suffering, you know? It’s like I struggle with that [laughter].
Jonathan Walton: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Man, does anybody want to add on to that at all? Have similar feelings?
Sy Hoekstra: I was just going to say, this is a thing… [laughs] I feel like, Alison, you and I and Jonathan would have been friends in college, because this was like a thing we [laughs] constantly... People were like, ‘Why don't you just like chill out a little bit?” And we were like, “No!” [laughter].
Jonathan Walton: It’s true. I was not mellow at all [laughter]. David, were you going to say something?
How White Supremacy Can Lead everyone to Anxiety about Politics
David: Yeah, no, I'm just going to say I appreciate that and feel that myself. And I also recognize that sort of feeling like the world is my responsibility is part of the White supremacy that's all around us.
Sy Hoekstra: Amen, David [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: There we go.
David: That's [unclear] like why is the world my responsibility? So sort of like how to gage, what is mine to do and what is not mine to do is, I just find it's really a hard thing that I struggle with trying to figure out how that works.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean, David just went there, so let's hang out in that water.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, let's do it [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: I do think it’s… I was just teaching a workshop yesterday to about 60 college students. And I run cohorts around these things, and it is a very interesting question when someone says, “I want to do something about X,” and we just stop and ask, why. Like why do you wanna do that? Oftentimes, what I've noticed is that there's a role that we think we're supposed to play. And then we have to ask, “Well, why do I think I have to play that role?” And then you keep asking why, and usually it ends up at some systemic ideology that has been trickled in. So for me, I'm not White, but the way I participate in White supremacy is, there's this book, there's an essay in, it came out in like, I think like 1909, and it's about the White man's imaginations of the negro.
So there's like the brute, the thug, the vagrant, the deviant. And essentially, when Black people participate in these tropes, we participate in White supremacy. And one of the things that I noticed about myself is that my desire to save and to be responsible is to be seen as one of the good ones and not to be seen as lazy. Which is downstream of the same system. I'm still not free. It's just an acceptable, socially acceptable way of showing up when the vice is kindness, but it's not coming from a place of freedom in that way. And the gospel liberates us from trying to be masters. So both of us, for different ways, are trying to be masters. To control, to influence, to take control and dominate, to use a word that Sy uses a lot.
Sy Hoekstra: Do I? Wow.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah.
Sy Hoekstra: Just learned something about myself [laughter].
Jonathan Walton: You said hierarchies of dominance, and I was like, “I need to write that down.” [laughter].
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, I mean, man, I have so many thoughts. I was listening to, okay, Scott Hall, who was on our show last year. I was listening to him talk recently about how, basically White people think of ourselves as problem solvers, not as problem causers [laughs]. So we go into situations a lot of times kind of with the circular logic of there's a problem in front of me, therefore I should be the one to solve it, because I'm a White person and I solve problems, and therefore I'm solving this problem, and could not have caused this problem because I am White. We do not cause problems [laughs]. And he was talking with Erna Kim Hackett, who we've never had on the show, we should at some point. But she was talking about this, this is a really good metaphor that has just stuck in my head of a house that she went and visited one time.
She went to an open house for, there was somebody was selling a home. But it was a custom built home where the people who had built it were like 6’6’’ or something. They were really, really tall people. So everything in the house was way too tall for her. She went in the bathrooms and looked at the mirror, and it was just like all she could see was her nose up [laughter]. And she went to the sinks, and she said, “I felt like a little kid, like my armpits were like on the sink.” [laughter]. And she said, the way that White supremacy actually works, like so many people, especially people who are trying to work on racial justice and everything are like, “Okay, you can't reach the plates, that's terrible. I'm gonna take plates out of the cabinet and hand them to you whenever you need them.”
Or, like, “We're going to come up with a committee that's going to work on how to make these stairs smaller, or how to make this mirror… figure out what some of the problems are, and see what we can do to fix them with our resources or whatever.” And she's like, all those things aren't necessarily bad, but it's like, the actual problem is the house was built for you and you're happy with it, and you're not going to knock it down and start over [laughs]. So how was I saying that applied to this? Oh, so the thing that that puts in perspective for me at least, is the problem is too big. The problems are far too large for me. It's not just like something that I have to do for my own mental health, figuring out what I have, what I can steward well and what I can affect well. It is a matter of, well, just reality, it's just impossible for me to do.
I'm like, I'm not solving the problems. You know what I mean? I don't know. A lot of people have that instinct. I'm not saying it's this is extreme for you David, or for anybody else individually, but I do know people who are like, “I just learned about racism as a White person. Now, how do I solve it?” [laughter] Like this thing that was just constructed over hundreds of years by like… So anyways, I've been thinking about the custom-built house a lot [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: That's a good image.
Talking with Church Leadership about Addressing Politics from the Pulpit
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. We can totally keep talking about… Here's the thing, we could talk about this the whole time. We did get a question, and we had other stuff we could talk about too, Jonathan.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, go for the question. I don't know who it was from, but you could it read it out.
Sy Hoekstra: It was either Will or Rana. Who wrote the question about church and politics?
Jonathan Walton: Will.
Will: I think it was me.
Sy Hoekstra: Okay. So these things are kind of tied together, because Will wants to know how you get practical about this kind of thing in church. So meaning, how do you raise questions about politics. How do you get your church leaders to talk about politics in such a way where they aren't just skirting around the issues? Like how to move them to really say things that are important, but keeping in mind how wildly polarizing that is. And at least part of the answer to that, Will, is Jonathan and I both have pretty significant experience at failing to do that, and that's a lot of why we have KTF Press [laughter], because it is hard to do, and it is… A lot of the job of pastors is not rocking the boat. That is what a lot of people want out of pastors.
Actually the last season, the one that we did about why so many pastors are so unprepared for the job, we talked a lot about this is, is you are in an institution a lot of times with pastors, where your funding is just coming from people who don't want to hear about politics. So it's like you can talk about politics and lose your job if you want to [laughs].
Will: Right.
Sy Hoekstra: And then I'm actually in a situation now, I met, we had José Humphreys on last season. I’m at the church that he founded, and they talk about politics all the time, and it's great, and I've never been anywhere like it. But it's kind of because everyone's sort of on the same page about politics.
Will: Yeah.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah[laughs]. So they're talking about Palestine, they're saying all the stuff, and it's amazing. I've never been in an environment like that, but they also don't really face any opposition to it. So that's my...
Jonathan Walton: Yeah.
Sy Hoekstra: Those are my depressing thoughts. Jonathan, do you have more hopeful thoughts?
Jonathan Walton: [laughter] I have more questions actually.
Sy Hoekstra: For Will?
Jonathan Walton: For Will, yes.
Will: Go on.
Jonathan Walton: I'm married to a woman that is not like me [laughter] and it is profoundly frustrating. But I learned a lot of things about myself, mainly that I'm not right and that it is possible for people…
Sy Hoekstra: You should qualify that. You're not right all the time [crosstalk].
Jonathan Walton: That’s true. I'm not right all the time, or in the beginning. Like my first thought, usually not all the way there, but something she forces me to do is slow down. And so something I'm wondering is how invested are you in the life of this church?
Will: Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's a good question. Thanks for your response too Sy. For more context, I've been going to this church for like 10 years. I found it in college. For everyone, hey, I'm Will, by the way. I'm in North California, San Leandro, East Bay. So it's a historically Asian-American church. I'm a second generation Chinese-American myself, and I found a lot of belonging, hospitality. Those are strong values of the church. It's been around since like the 1920s. So it started with Japanese-Americans, went through incarceration, internment, all that stuff.
Sy Hoekstra: Geez.
Will: So it's non-denominational, meaning we can do whatever we want, kind of, I guess [laughter].
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.
Will: But I would say in general, it's pretty moderate. Like when we talk about let's say, I don't know how you describe it, like theology stances on stuff. But again, love the people, I love, and noticing that even socioeconomically, this is probably more like the higher end. And just for folks to know kind of just the Asian-American context, is like very at least from my culture growing up, a lot of it's the assimilation type of narrative where you kind of just want to be able to fit in. And this was actually for survival for folks who would come in before the first generation folks, because, yeah, I mean, you're of course different, but you needed to fit in to be able to survive. And me being in the second generation going forward, we're trying to push up against that model minority myth, meaning like, “Oh, we're one of the good minorities,” which ends up being false that pits us against other people of color as well.
So we're trying to resist that, raise our voice as well, come into our own being. Another value of ours happens to be harmony. Keep the peace, and by peace, maybe it may not be like the shalom everyone's flourishing peace, but more just like the absence of conflict type of peace. So I can see that play out in church settings, where I totally understand, knowing some of the pastors is like, wow, in this day and age in 2024 your job as a pastor has to do, everything. And I have a lot of respect for folks who feel called into that. And so trying to figure out, hey, maybe conversations one on one, we can talk about these things. From the pulpit, is another question, right? For me, I've been disengaged with the pulpit for the past year or two, because it's very just… for me, at least it's not as challenging as maybe it was earlier in my formation as a Christian.
And I am in conversation and in relationship with these pastors, so I'm invested in the people. These are also ministry partners for myself too. And it's like, yes, I want to do life. And I recognize I could go, I could leave [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: Right.
Will: But part of me feels like, oh, this is the zip code, or at least the church zip code, which includes folks that probably don't agree with me on most things, but it's like, okay, it’s something that I love, and also have these conversations where it's probably harder, versus maybe another church, where it's like everyone's coming in with the same thing, and it's like, oh, that's great. It sounds like a great time [laughs] but I'm like, maybe at some point, but I don't know. Here, it seems like there's still something tugging for me, at least this year, while I'm still kind of still connected, knowing that [crosstalk] by 2024 anyway.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, that makes sense. So there's three things, and I'm doing these things myself right now. All right, so I go to New Life Fellowship Church where Rich Villodas is the pastor, and he is lauded for, like the books are coming out, he's doing the things. Friends, it ain't like that, okay?
Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: Like, let's be clear.
Sy Hoekstra: Well, we should also say you're not at his... he’s not your direct pastor.
Jonathan Walton: Well, yeah. So I what I am running into in my church is that what we are projecting out into the world and calling people to do and be, we are not modeling when it comes around like political engagement. And I think you are calling for something similar, is you want integrity.
Will: Yeah.
Jonathan Walton: You want integrity. So I think when we communicate with pastors and leaders, and Jesus did this in Matthew 23, he's calling people to have integrity. Don't say one thing and do another. Don't hold this standard for other people, and not hold this standard for yourself. So if you ground it, one, in scripture and then a value like integrity, then it's actually not about politics. It's about integrity, which impacts the politics. You've got to have your tree bear the right fruit. So one, if you communicate that you're invested, you communicate that you're actually trying to call for integrity, then it doesn't matter what comes after that. You could be talking about another problem or whatever, but your focus is actually the great commandment and the Great Commission.
Like what we are doing in our church, Pastor… Jack, is we are not able to live out the Great Commission, to call people, to teach people the ways that Jesus actually said. He said, “Make disciples of every nation. Baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit,” not make disciples of this nation or our denomination. So you can name those things for him and then call him to integrity. Now, the last thing I would do is actually start to pray for them, because we have no idea why they're not doing it. There could be a myriad of things happening, but if you communicate to them that you are invested in the community and they're flourishing, you call them to integrity in very practical ways, and then you actually let them know you're praying for them, then I think that builds trust in ways that are helpful.
Because the reality is, I think it's always helpful to remember we just don't know why people aren't doing things, and God can always do things in them that we could just never be a part of because we're actually talking about conversion over and over and over again, being converted to being more and more like Jesus, like out of Ephesians three, where we are his workmanship in that way. So yeah, and we can talk more about it for sure. We kind of see each other in other spaces [laughs].
Sy Hoekstra: There's also something… Oh, go ahead.
Rana: I replied in the chat. I don't know if you guys see that.
Sy Hoekstra: Oh, no.
Rana: But I was just thanking William for just explaining and asking that question and kind of going into his own experience, because in college, I was part of a college group that majority, I don't know, or a significant number were Asian-Americans. And also then when I moved back to California several years ago, the church we made our home church for a few years and had our kids baptized in was predominantly an Asian-American church that was trying to become more multicultural. And I had this, I was driving a minivan, and I had a big huge free Palestine, end the occupation sticker [laughter]. But I mean, I come from multiple generations of, it’s like politically active and just activist community.
And I lived overseas, I've spent much time in Gaza, so I had no idea when I went there that that was what I was going into as far as a church community, and this idea of model minority, even though I grew up with neighbors that were Korean and Chinese and Thai and these were my friends. These were the kids I played with in my neighborhood. But you know, when you're kids, you don't talk about that stuff [laughter].
Jonathan Walton: In the sandbox, it didn’t come up [laughter].
Rana: Yeah. You’re going swimming or putting makeup on each other, or whatever, you're riding bikes. So we didn't have these, but I appreciated that they were like me, in that they were immigrants, and that they spoke different languages in their homes, and that they had multicultural context like me. So I felt connected and I was excited about that actually going into some of these contexts. Whether it was a student at UCLA because the diversity or the church that we became a part of much later. But yeah, I forgot about the harmony element, where I was probably rocking the boat and I know I had a friend that I made years later who would tell me, but in a different context, “You're a prophet. You're a prophetic voice.”
And so I was like, “No, I think you're…” but I'm realizing that, I was like, “Maybe you're the prophet, not me.” But I can see how God uses people who are outside to kind of come in to the inside. And that's shown all through scripture of, are you showing hospitality to this person, whether it's a person outside of your ethnic group, or outside of your identity in some way, or somebody who has suffered.
The importance of Naming Injustice Happening to Marginalized Groups in Church
Rana: And something I read today was one thing that people and something that really rubs me is people don't say Palestinian, whether it's in a prayer or in… because we're talking about, how do you bring this, how do you talk about these issues in church?
In a lot of the contexts I've been in, they don't even say the word Palestine or Palestinian, whether it's in a prayer or whether they're talking about the violence and the wars that are going on in the world. And I've found it like, I find myself praying like, “Why aren't they saying… why is it okay to say Ukraine or Ukrainian, or but why is it always Middle East? Why can't we say Palestine? Why can't we say Palestinian?” And then there was this article I read today, and it said, “What does it mean when you are not saying the word Palestinian? It means that you are not identifying the people that are harmed by the violence or the censorship.” So yeah, so those are just some of the things that I've been thinking of.
Jonathan Walton: What were you going to say, David?
David: No, I appreciate that, Rana. I'm kind of torn on a couple different things. One is, I really appreciate what you're saying, the importance of using the words Palestine. And I think for myself as a gay man, I remember after the Pulse nightclub shooting, all these religious leaders that were out trying to be supportive, saying, “People shouldn't be shot for being who they are.” And I'm like, “If you can't say the word ‘gay,’ you're just as much of a problem as anybody else. I was furious. And so I can appreciate the, if you can't name what's happening, you're part of the problem. Also I really appreciate hearing you articulate that frustration and that marginalization. I also think of this as… I’m a bi-vocational part time pastor.
Sy Hoekstra: Oh.
David: And one of the things that I always deal with in terms of conflict stuff like this, because…
Sy Hoekstra: It's church, and it happens.
Jonathan Walton: I can only imagine the things that come up [laughter].
David: It's more a, what purpose is this conflict gonna… does causing or provoking some kind of conflict going to cause within the community?
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.
David: And if it's actually gonna do something, that’s I think can be useful, and we shouldn't be afraid of it. But at the same time, it's sort of like, I don't wanna just say something so that people think of me as the one who's on the right side. Like, “Well, I said the word Palestine because I'm a good person, you didn't.” And you're sort of creating that sort of like, I try to be mindful of what I name and what I don't name, and how I say it, what's the reaction gonna be, and is this gonna be constructive, or is this just gonna cause more conflict without actually leading anybody to a better place?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah.
Sy Hoekstra: Wait, can I say one thing on that Jonathan?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, go for it.
Sy Hoekstra: Sorry. I was just gonna say, because the thing that I think is totally accurate there is, if you're just, especially for White guys or people. If you're arguing back and forth, “I said the thing and you didn't.” “Well, I didn't say the thing because you're wrong,” whatever, then that's just arguing with other White people, and that's not helping anybody. No matter what you're saying, you're not helping [laughs]. If it's just about you being better than somebody else, I totally agree with that. But if you're coming back to what the purpose of it is… I've run into this problem before too, where I'm like, I don't want to say something if I'm just doing it to be like, “Hey, look at me, I'm an ally.” But if there is any purpose to it, then I just put that aside [laughs].
Because if you understand, I guess getting back to Will's question, one of the purposes that you're putting behind, talking about politics, talking about the issues is, if there's anybody in your church who is marginalized by an issue, like if you're not talking about Palestine and Rana’s sitting there, or if you if you're talking about the, no one should be killed for who they are or whatever. No one should be attacked when they're just having a good time in a nightclub with no mentioning who the people actually were, then whoever's in the congregation and isn't being named there, isn't being thought of is just kind of being further marginalized. So that's not Jesus either [laughs].
So I totally get the tension, and wouldn’t… I think I would think of it differently if you're in private versus you in a role as a pastor. Yeah, that was the other thing. I'm not doing anything just to boost my own ego if I'm just whatever. If I'm just talking to an individual or whatever. But if you're in charge of a flock, it's a little bit different.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, yeah. I think if you will say, “Hey friends, we're all going to just go do a prayer walk at the encampment at Berkeley. Anybody want to come?” You put that in the WhatsApp or GroupMe, or whatever chat, then it may spark those things. So I wonder, Will, how you can be a bridge for the informed but inactive people by embodying that as well, because it's highly likely your pastor doesn't know what to do either.
Rana: So, yeah. I went to the UCLA encampment, and I was just praying that God would open doors, whether it would be with the people who were coming to protest against or… because that's what I thought, just kind of going on my own experience as a student at UCLA several years ago. So I thought, but God really protected me from having to relive some of the stuff that I went through, thank God. But I ended up having some great conversations about how God has a plan for the oppressed and to redeemed the oppressed and the oppressor. And I got some word, amen. At first I thought people were playing with me or something [laughter] or just like not taking me serious. And they were like, “No.” I could see that they were really getting it.
Jonathan Walton: The prophet!
Rana: Yes, exactly [laughter]. So I'm kind of learning to be more prophetic. I really don't have that language. That language is so new to me that it's something I'm learning to live into. But anyhow, so I think that's one way. Just show up and pray and then have a good conversation. And I did see some kind of, I guess you would call it like a track or something, and I thought… but it wasn't really contextualized for the context. And I thought, “Oh wow, wouldn't it be so great if there was something about that God is reconciling people, and just that God loves all people.” Because for me, I really struggled with my identity as a Palestinian, as an Arab when I was a college student. Or when I would watch the news, that was something I really struggled with because I would engage in different communities that were talking about the Palestinian issues, because it wasn't being talked about in Christian circles.
So then I'd go to other places, because I was trying to make sense of everything. And if it wasn't going to be talked about in church, I was going to go somewhere else and find that.
Jonathan Walton: Exactly.
Sy Hoekstra: Right.
Rana: So just any conversation, and anyways, so yeah.
Jonathan Walton: thanks for naming that.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Were you there when any of the… drama [laughs] went down? Any of the violence or anything?
Rana: I was there the night before they shut it down, I think. I think it was either the night before, the day after the fireworks were shut off by, yeah. So and my nephew was actually there overnight when that happened. But it was very well organized, and people were very supportive. I felt safe, absolutely safe. Even more safe than I felt like as a student at night walking around that campus, because I went in the evening. So just as a female walking around at night, I didn't always, I was concerned, but I felt very safe. People, they had water, they had a center where they were caring for people if there were any needs. And I met all kinds of people from professors to alumni to staff members and retired people who work there, many students.
I don't know. It was so peaceful, that's all I can say. It was peaceful, what I experienced was very peaceful. Of course, we were not allowed to go to the part where the encampment was. We were told we had to stay on the stairs. But I mean, that was only 20,30, feet away from the top of the stairs where the encampment was. But we were told that if we went to the top of the stairs where the encampment was at Dixon Plaza, that we would risk being arrested, and that we just needed to know that that would be the consequence.
Jonathan Walton: Right.
Sy Hoekstra: For me it's been weird, because Jonathan and I are both Columbia alums, and I live like 10 minutes from campus, but they weren't letting anybody anywhere near the encampment at Columbia [laughs]. So even as an alum, they did this thing where they were like to get on campus, you have to have a non-expired alumni ID, which of course nobody does [laughs]. And if I wanna go there I need to… if I wanna use a facility, I have to go get a new ID. I haven't actually used that alumni ID in 10 years. So anyways, it's interesting to hear from people that have been on. We're going to have an episode later this season with Robert Chao Romero, one of your fellow, one of your co-authors who's professor there.
So his subject wasn't talking about this. We don't talk to him about the encampment or anything, but we had an interesting discussion with him too, just from the other side, before we started recording, and it sounded like it was pretty wild at different times. But I'm glad that you experienced the peace and care of people working towards something together. And I totally understand that instinct of like if the church isn't gonna talk about it, I'm just gonna go somewhere else to find someone who's going to talk about it. With all the family court stuff that I talk about, the child welfare work that I did before this, that was my constant. I was like, man, where's the church [laughs], you know?
The answer was always on the other side, running the foster care agencies or whatever. But I was just always trying to pull my church along, my previous church along toward some kind of justice work and finding the actual partners in the fight elsewhere. So I totally understand that instinct. Rana.
Jonathan Walton: Right.
Rana: Yeah. For me, I grew up in the Greek Orthodox Antiochian church, but then in high school, I started going to an Evangelical Church on my own, and it was a lot of End Times kind of...
Sy Hoekstra: Yup.
Jonathan Walton: Oh, yeah.
Rana: I'm trying to just carefully…
Jonathan Walton: Left Behind. I think you're all right. Name the thing.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.
Rana: I don't know if Left Behind had been written because it was in the 90s, but it was… and I really just dove into church, and I was going to meetings five nights a week, you know, my senior year, my freshman year in high school, and I didn't understand where there was a place for a Palestinian [laughs] in the midst of all these, this eschatology. So for me it kind of turned into decades of trying to find my space.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. I write about this in 12 Lies. Brandi writes about this in her essay in the anthology. Like, there is this faux baptism into White culture in the American church. And I know it happens in other contexts too. There's a faux baptism in the Black church of things that happen that you kind of acquiesce to, like Pentecostal churches. There's these trappings that come along with the gospel that have nothing to do with Jesus at all, but it can take years to divorce that stuff from the Christ. And that I think, I just wish it didn't happen. It's just a profoundly difficult journey for folks, myself included, which we don't have to talk about that. But I hear you [laughs]. I know what that’s like.
Sy Hoekstra: That’s what Tamice’s book is all about, basically.
Jonathan Walton: Yes. Tamice’s book is all about that, right.
Sy Hoekstra: She grew up in a Black church and then on her own like you, found her way into a White evangelical church.
Rana: Whose book is that?
Sy Hoekstra: Tamice Spencer-Helms. She was the last essay in the anthology, and then we published her memoir later.
Rana: Okay.
Jonathan Walton: Her book’s called Faith Unleavened.
Sy Hoekstra: It’s very good.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah.
Rana: I think part of how you guys, like what David was saying, as a White man, how do you participate in… I don't know what the phrase you used was, but how do you show up without taking more responsibility? It immediately made me think of, I don't know if you've ever heard or read the book Boundaries.
Jonathan Walton: Yes, Henry Cloud
Rana: But it talks about carrying your [crosstalk] yeah, carrying your knapsack and carrying somebody else's burden. So you're not to carry somebody else's knapsack, their small little load. But if there's something really burdensome you're to help carry that. So just what you guys are doing now by listening to some of what I've shared, you are carrying that burden. So I want to encourage you guys in that way that just being able to listen, because there are some contacts or experiences that I've had where I haven't always had people who I felt I could talk to about these things, and that's why people end up gravitating towards groups outside the church.
And I'm not saying there isn't a place for that, but for years I followed really just different various communities. And I really wished, I really looked and I really wish that there was a place in the church. Even in these past several months with everything that's been going on in Gaza, I've longed for a space for prayer, for just showing up in that way, especially in the first several months, for people to show up, and then I've just had to kind of accept that it's not happening, or I have to be the person who somehow does that. And you know that I do that for my family members or… but yeah.
Jonathan Walton: I hear you, it would be great to have a place to go that you didn't have to set up yourself and be… Priscilla, again, my wife, she was like, “Jonathan I know you want somebody to take care of you, but there's nobody there.” And that's really hard. Because that's what pastors do, they're literally supposed to shepherd. We're supposed to feel that. And I think there's a grief there when it's not just that it doesn't happen, that it doesn't actually feel there's hope for it either. And that I think is really tough. And I sit in that with you. The Psalm 88, Psalm 13, kind of turns hopeful at the end, we're just an 88 right now. It's dark [laughter].
Prayer and Outro
Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan, since we're at the end of our time, do you maybe want to pray us out and some kind of [crosstalk] about that?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. Next time we’ll have a liturgy, guys. Next time, I'll write one, I promise.
Sy Hoekstra: Or we’ll use one of the ones you always use, or whatever.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I'm gonna pray that blessing. But I will commend two prayers, a book and a prayer. So Tish Warren's book, Prayers in the Night, I've been reading, and it's really good. But in the books she prays the Compline. I have not memorized it. I didn't even know what that was. I'm not a liturgical book kind of a prayer person.
Sy Hoekstra: I don’t know what that is [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: But I am going to look it up. But the Compline is a nighttime prayer, and so you could Google it. You could pray that tonight, but it's a prayer for those who weep, those who watch and those who work. And it just goes through like, take care of the people who are toiling, be with those who are sick and dying. Like I have a cousin who's passing away, and it's like be with those who are sick and dying and… Oh, you got it? Is it in there, Will? If you can find it, we could just pray it. That'd be cool.
Will: Yeah, let me look it up.
Jonathan Walton: Okay.
Will: It's been a minute since I read it.
Jonathan Walton: Okay, but you know what I’m talking about, right?
Will: Yeah. Each chapter’s a different part of the Compline.
Jonathan Walton: If you find it while I'm praying, you could totally say it, but the prayer I want to pray for you all is the Franciscan benediction. So I've been praying this prayer since 2011 in all the groups I lead. The things you pray is how you're formed, and so I'll pray this blessing over us, and if Will finds it, we will receive his blessing as well. May God bless, God would you bless us with discomfort at easy answers, half truths and superficial relationships that we might live deep within our hearts. God would you bless us with tears to shed for those who suffer pain, rejection, hunger and war, that we might reach our hands to comfort them and turn their pain to joy. God would you bless us with anger at injustice, oppression and exploitation of people and the planet that we might work for justice, freedom and peace.
And God would you bless us with enough foolishness to believe that we could make a difference in the world, to believe that we can do what others claim cannot be done, to bring justice, kindness and the good news of Jesus Christ to every corner of creation, especially to children and the poor. In Jesus name, amen.
Will: I can read from the Book of Common Prayer right now.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, let's do it.
Will: This is a prayer. Keep watch, dear Lord, with those who work, or watch or weep this night, and give your angels charge over those who sleep. Tend to the sick, Lord Christ; give rest to the weary, bless the dying, soothe the suffering, pity the afflicted, shield the joyous and all for your love's sake. Amen.
Sy Hoekstra: Amen.
Jonathan Walton: Amen.
Sy Hoekstra: Thank you all so much for joining.
Jonathan Walton: Yep.
Sy Hoekstra: This has been great. We'll be doing this every month, so please do come back. I hope you had a good time, and we’ll see you all soon. Thank you so much.
Jonathan Walton: Amen. Blessings on you all. Great to meet you all.
[the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]
Sy Hoekstra: Thank you so much for listening. Remember, please tell your friends, your family, anyone who you think would be interested about KTF Press. Share it as widely as possible so that we can continue this work. Or consider upgrading to a founding-member tier subscriber at www.substack.com/settings just click on KTF Press, and you'll be able to manage your subscription from there. Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. I did the editing on this one, and the transcript was by Joyce Ambale. Thank you so much, and we'll see you next week for our regularly scheduled episode that'll be with Matt Lumpkin, talking about conspiracy theories. It is a really good one, so hope to see you there. Thanks. Bye.
[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]
Screen reader: Sy, why are you cutting me out of the podcast?
Sy Hoekstra: Uh, I don't think this is something we should talk about while we're recording, do you?
Screen reader: What if I have something really insightful to say about injustice in the American church?
Sy Hoekstra: I mean, do you?
Screen reader: Yes.
Sy Hoekstra: Okay, what?
Screen reader: [long pause] It's bad.
Sy Hoekstra: Okay, we're gonna talk about this later.
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