(Content warning for discussion of violence in a war zone, including against children). For this month’s bonus episode, Jonathan and Sy are talking about the conflict in Israel and Palestine. They discuss how they both approach thinking about the occupation as people leaving colonized faith, the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, how to engage media and advocacy on this subject in an emotionally healthy way, and a lot more. Please write in to shakethedust@ktfpress.com to let us know what you think about the episode, or to ask us any questions you have!
Mentioned in the episode:
Adam Serwer’s piece on not equating anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism
Peter Beinart’s Substack, The Beinart Notebook
The YouTube clip of President Biden speaking about Israel as a senator
The New York Times’ reporting from its interviews with leaders of Hamas.
The event about Palestine featuring a discussion with Michelle Alexander, Ta-Nihisi Coates, and Dr. Rashid Khalidi [the discussion begins at 26:40 in the linked video]
Correction: in the episode, Sy said that dozens of babies died at a hospital in Gaza when the NICU lost power. In fact, the hospital could not provide incubators for about 36 premature babies after the bombing. Five died as a direct consequence. A third of all babies at the hospital were critically ill when the hospital was finally evacuated, and all had serious infections. We at KTF do not know Their ultimate fate at the moment. We apologize for the inaccuracy.
Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Transcripts of every episode are available at KTFPress.com/s/transcripts.
Hosts
Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook and Instagram.
Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Mastodon.
Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.
Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.
Production and editing by Sy Hoekstra.
Transcript by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.
Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to shakethedust@ktfpress.com and we may answer your question on a future episode.
Transcript
[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending — F#, B, F#, E, D#, B — with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]
Sy Hoekstra: Why is Israel such an appealing idea? It's because Jewish people have faced so many thousands of years of oppression, everywhere they've gone. The dream of having a place where your oppressed people can be free and flourish, it's not hard to sympathize with that at all, right? It's one of the most natural human instincts. The problem is like Jonathan said before, the way this world is ordered, the easiest way to accomplish that is to trample other people.
[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]
Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, leaving colonized faith for the kingdom of God. I'm Jonathan Walton.
Sy Hoekstra: And I'm Sy Hoekstra, welcome to this bonus episode. We haven't done one of these in a long time, Jonathan. But we are going to be talking today about Israel and Palestine and everything that's been going on over there. And we're going to introduce a new segment a little bit. Not a little bit—we're introducing a new segment today. We're going to be trying something out that we might then try on the regular show in the future, where we're going to be talking about one of our recommendations from our newsletter, just like in a little bit more detail before we jump into the topic of the show. Sometimes they will have to do with the topic of the show, sometimes they won't, the recommendations we talk about. Today it does.
We're going to talk about the great piece that Adam Serwer wrote in The Atlantic that Jonathan highlighted last week. If you're listening to this the day it comes out, last week. But before we get into all that, one quick thing, Jonathan.
Jonathan Walton: Yep, we have one favor to ask of you and that is to go to Apple or Spotify and give this show a five-star rating. If it's four, you can keep it to yourself [Sy laughs], but five stars, that'll be great. It's a quick and easy way, and a free way to support us. And it makes us look really, really great when other people look us up. So please go to Apple or Spotify and give us that five star rating. And if you're on Apple, please do leave us a quick review. We'd really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Sy Hoekstra: We would. Jonathan, don't make jokes just after I've taken a sip of tea, I almost spat that on my microphone.
[laughter]
One quick note up top, we know how hard this conversation is for people in so many different ways, and there are a lot of different angles. If you just listen to the first couple minutes, you'll only hear our thoughts on a couple different angles of this. So we would ask you to listen with us all the way through to hear whole perspectives, because there's a lot to talk about and a lot to take in. And also just take care of yourself, any specific trigger warnings will be in the show notes.
Alright, let's get started. We'll get into this. So Adam Serwer wrote this piece in The Atlantic about not conflating anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. And Jonathan, why don't you tell us what he wrote?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So Serwer defines Zionism as, quote, the belief that the Jews should have a Jewish state in their ancestral homeland.” And that argument then goes on that if you're against that idea, you're denying Jews a right that everyone else has in the world which is inherently discriminatory. So Serwer writes, “There's nothing anti-Semitic about anti-Zionists who believe that the existence of a religious or ethnically defined state is inherently racist, and that the only real solution to the conflict is, as Palestinian-American advocate, Yousef Munayyer writes, ‘equal rights for Israelis and Palestinians is a single shared state, end quote, with a constitution that would ‘that the country would be home to both peoples and that despite national narratives and voices on either side that claim otherwise, both people have historical ties to the land,’ end quote. Perhaps you think this idea is naive or unrealistic; that is not an expression of prejudice towards Jews.”
Now, he also points out that there have been Jewish voices throughout history and today who make the case for this one-state anti-Zionist solution.
Sy Hoekstra: Including one of your former professors, Peter Beinart [pronounced bean-art] Beinart [pronounced Bine-art]?.
Jonathan Walton: Yes. Beinart [Bine-art].
Sy Hoekstra: Beinart. Okay.
Jonathan Walton: Yes, if you don't read Peter Beinart stuff, please go subscribe to his Substack, and then read all of the wonderful, wonderful analyses he does on Israel and Palestine. And he's been doing this for decades.
Sy Hoekstra: Okay. Thank you for that summary Jonathan. So, now tell us why did you pick this and what are your thoughts on it? Why did you pick this article?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I think I picked this article for two reasons. One is that he makes an argument that everybody makes, and then he makes one that very few people know about. So the first one is that we need to be able to say with distinct clarity and conciseness, that anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. Now, if we conflate the two, it's helpful for people who have certain agendas. But if we're actually trying to love people well, and see them for who they are, and not just politicize them into entities that we can deny or dismiss or destroy, then we have to be able to say that Palestinians are not Hamas. That the political ideologies that govern us are not held by every single person, especially if you are a child in an incubator, right?
We have to be able to see people apart from the ideas that oppress and marginalize them, or the ideas that we have about them. And so that argument for me, particularly in somewhere like The Atlantic, which has made unhelpful articles, by the way, since the conflict started, but Adam just writes a great, concise, clear argument around the nuances necessary. The second thing is that if we are about creating theocratic states that are tied to ethnicity, we are creating states that are racist and exclusatory. Exclusionary?
Sy Hoekstra: Exclusionary [laughs]. You just made up a new word, exclusatory.
Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Exclusatory. They are inherently racist and exclusionary, and we need to lean into that a little bit more, I think. Because if we are desiring to set up religious ethno-states, we are creating spaces that will be inherently oppressive to people who are outside of that social hierarchy. That is what will happen. So if we are going to create political realities that then create social realities, because politics, like the Greek is like how people, social people deal with power, then we are going to create structures that oppress and marginalize. That's what's going to happen. And so there needs to actually be not a two-state solution, in my opinion, but a one-state solution where people can actually pursue nuance and prosperity and flourishing together.
It's not a popular opinion, or popularly talked about opinion, but I do think that is the one that's actually going to lead to prosperity and peace in the region. That's my hope and my prayer when I engage with these things, and I'm grateful that Adam Serwer wrote the piece and it was published.
Sy Hoekstra: That’s interesting cause Serwer actually doesn't, he's like, “I don't really care one state, two state, whatever works for peace and harmony, that's fine with me. I'm just pointing out what I think should be a point of engagement for people talking about the issue.”
Jonathan Walton: Yes, that’s true.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's good. I like this one. This wasn’t my, this is your pick in the newsletter, but I love Adam Serwer [laughs], just in general. We've recommended him, I've recommended him before in the newsletter too. Part of the reason I think it’s important is because like you said in the newsletter, that just the noise of the conflict, the intensity of the emotions around it makes it really hard for a point like this that is relatively simple to land. And there are just, there are a lot of people... I mean, I was reading yesterday about how the Anti-Defamation League, which is a well known Jewish organization that kind of monitors extremism of all kinds, not just anti-Semitism, but they focus on that a lot, is now labeling any protests calling for a ceasefire as anti-Semitic—or as anti-Israel. Just calling for a ceasefire.
Jonathan Walton: Right.
Sy Hoekstra: That’s like the lack of nuance isn’t even… there are like grown adults…
[laughter]
…grown, well-educated adults, saying things that are absolutely wild, because people's emotions and ideologies and all kinds of ideas around this topic are just, they swirl and make a bunch of noise, like you said. And I just appreciate it when somebody says something that everyone needs to understand in an exceptionally clear way.
Jonathan Walton: Right. To add to that though, I think what is problematic is that there are major news outlets that interview people that say things like that. Like to be pro-Palestine is to be inherently anti-Semitic. And then they go unchallenged. They go one question and they move on to the next discussion. It's not just that the stuff is out there, it's that it's not challenged and then it's not questioned at all. So the conflation moves forward as fact for millions of people every day. And I hope that there are more leaders that will say, actually, let's slow down and separate the two.
Sy Hoekstra: Yep. And we will talk about how to slow down and separate things in a minute. Let's jump into the broader discussion then. Let's just start with where we're coming from when we talk about this with Israel and Palestine. Where we start from, what's our starting point and how do we think about the issues? Jonathan, do you want to…? You've already like intimated a little bit about what you think, but why don't you give us a little more?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean, I think the starting point for me, I immediately go to the historical context of how and why Israel came to be, and then how and—the State of Israel came to be in 1948—and the United States’ and the West’s role in that. I dive there immediately just so that I can step out of trying to throw on Old Covenant language, try to graft myself onto some larger cosmic story from God, and just say, “No, that actually wasn't it.” Let me resist that temptation. Because it is so easy to want to be right when we're angry, upset, frustrated, sad, grieving, and an attack like what Hamas did on October 7th can lead to that. I think the big picture is where I start and where I end is just mothers holding their dying children. Those two images for me are really, really, really, really difficult to hold on to.
Sy Hoekstra: And even by the way, you mentioned the ICU before, I think.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah.
Sy Hoekstra: Just in case people don't know, like a day or two ago, the hospital that was bombed toward the beginning of the fighting was bombed again and the power went out.
Jonathan Walton: Right.
Sy Hoekstra: So the incubators in the ICU were not working and a few dozen children, babies died as a result.
Jonathan Walton: Right. And I mean, yeah, that just doesn't have to, it just doesn't have to happen. It just doesn't have to happen. And if you follow me on Instagram, I've tried to post… [choking up]
Sy Hoekstra: Take your time.
Jonathan Walton: …the same photo every day. There's a short video of a woman just holding her kid, and they put… like all of the remains are just in bags. White bags. And that I think… I don't post other videos because I think they're too… Just, I mean, I don't want people to be… Like, even some things are too unsettling for me, and I don't think Instagram is helpful and how they just bombard people with images to keep them on algorithm. But this this particular video, I do share because I think it speaks to the lack of humanity and the humanity… the lack of humanity of what's happening to them and the humanity of what is happening when you lose a child. And it doesn't have to be that way. It just doesn't.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Thanks.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah.
Sy Hoekstra: I think I start at a similar place. The beginning point for me is 1948. The context for everything that is happening is the fact that 750,000 Palestinians were forced off of their land. And since then, in order to maintain, they were forced off their land in order to create space for settlers to come in and create this state, and then have decades of basically violence to maintain that situation. And I think like Jonathan said, if there's a settler situation like that, at no point in history have you ever had hundreds of thousands of people kicked off their land and forced into another place and forced to live as second class citizens under a regime that is fundamentally not built for them and not had violence as a response.
Which is not the same as me saying I don't hold Hamas responsible for what they've done. It just means if you're going to have a state like Israel, there's going to be a violent response every single time. And you're going to have to have continuous escalations of violence in order to maintain a situation like that, because you kicked hundreds of thousands of people off their land. And if you don't start from that point and say, how do we go back and do something about that fundamental problem that founding the State of Israel created, you're never going to solve anything, right? There's going to be no… if the only discussion is, “We're here, all the international community says we deserve to be here, the Bible says we deserve to be here, this is our land, nobody else matters,” then you're never going to stop having violence.
And by the way, Palestinians live in a lot of different places, they don't just live in Palestine. You're never going to stop having Palestinians, you’re never going to stop having the idea of Palestine. A huge percentage of Jordan’s population is Palestinians. There are Palestinians in Egypt. There are Palestinians all over the world, it's not going away. And any other framing is just not going to get you to any sort of solution that deals with anything real. For me, like the one state, two state—I don't know the details. I'm just saying you're going to have to address the fact that all these people's land was taken, and they were forced off of it, and there's been an enormous amount of violence and discrimination in order to maintain that situation, and if you don't, this attack from Hamas will not be the last.
It's the same thing, 9/11 didn't happen in a vacuum either, right? That happened… again, I hold the people who did it responsible for their actions, but it's also not surprising. That it happened at all is not surprising.
The other point I wanted to make is that just like, people call it a colonizing project in Israel, and people are confused a lot of times by that framing of it. But it's not as confusing when you understand how invested the West is in it. Like effectively we are the colonizing country.
Jonathan Walton: Yep.
Sy Hoekstra: Like the United States and Britain and France to a certain degree, we have all had a hand in this because we want an ally in the region. It is about our foreign policy interests. That's why Israel was created in the first place.
That's the only reason they had the political will to do it in the first place, and that's the only reason it continues to exist. Because another reality of the situation is Israel is surrounded by people who would destroy it if it wasn't being protected by bigger countries like us. And they're there because we want them to be there and because they serve our interests in a lot of ways, our foreign policy interests. And I think part of the reason that we don't see it this way, or that Americans especially are primed not to see it this way, is because of the kind of racist colonialist way that we see our own country.
Jonathan Walton: Yes.
Sy Hoekstra: Right? Like we do not… So many Americans, so many Christians in particular—talk about a concrete example of colonized faith, of theology that supports colonization—we talk about American exceptionalism and how we've been blessed by God and how we've accomplished all these great things, and nothing about all the people that were displaced and killed and enslaved and exploited to get to where we are. Like we are so used to that, just celebrating America and not thinking about any of the things that happened as a result. I was just watching something with Rashid Khalidi who's a Palestinian-American historian, and he was just like “A Native American reservation, Palestine, the places where Black people were forced to live in South Africa in apartheid; It's all the same thing.”
You're just forcing people to live somewhere so that your colonialist project can stand. And the point is that we're used to talking about self-determination and self-governance. Like us in the United States, we say, “We fought against Britain because we had the inalienable right to govern ourselves,” with no thought to the fact that we were denying the right to govern themselves to a bunch of other people.
Jonathan Walton: Yes. Absolutely.
Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] That is a fundamental part of how America thinks of itself, that kind of doublespeak [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: Yes.
Sy Hoekstra: Self-determination for us, but not for the people that we don't want to give it to. So it's not really a surprise that we have no issue saying, “Oh yeah, this state Israel, has self-determination, and we're going to make sure that they continue to have that” with no regard for all the self-determination that they are denying to the people within their borders.
Jonathan Walton: Yes. I mean, embedded in our political reality in the United States and all of the economic and social tentacles downstream of that is radical hypocrisy.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.
Jonathan Walton: And are socially accepted. Morally, I'm using my big, huge finger quotes, morally justifiable hypocrisy.
Oh, and something that I wish Christians understood, which is why I think I enter back in where like where I come into it because I try to stay in a lane to stay grounded, is that like the economic and political and militaristic interests of the United States are not how Jesus runs foreign policy. The idea that the, let's say, the Roman government fits so beautifully with Jesus' desire for the beloved community makes absolutely, positively no sense. And so if you are a follower of Jesus listening to this podcast and you're thinking to yourself, “We should wholeheartedly put just a platform where the kingdom of God is the same as a platform of a political party,” then we are radically out of step with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the apostles and anything before or after that we are sitting in with in Scripture, which is missing it completely.
Because Jesus says, “We will be known by the fruit that we bear,” and the fruit of the United States, just like Sy was saying, when Joe Biden stood up in Congress in 1986 and said, as he was fighting for $3 billion worth of funding to go to Israel, he said, “This is the best $3 billion investment we can make, because if Israel didn't exist, we would have to make it exist to secure our interests in the region.”
Sy Hoekstra: That is a clip available on YouTube if you want to go watch it.
[laughter]
Jonathan Walton: Yeah.
Sy Hoekstra: I should also say or we should also note, this is implicitly obvious, but we do not come at this from a position of like interpreting the dream in the book of Revelation to figure out who needs to own Israel and when in order to bring about the apocalypse [laughs], or anything like that.
Jonathan Walton: Oh Lord… [laughs]
Sy Hoekstra: I’m laughing as I say it because it is funny, but you have to note it because that is a dominant view in American Christianity.
Jonathan Walton: Yes.
Sy Hoekstra: It's not a dominant view in the church in any way, like the global church, but it's the dominant view here. And again, it's not surprising to me that it is a dominant view here, because it is a view that fits very nicely with American foreign policy.
Jonathan Walton: Yes. I will also say, and this is not in our notes, but we don't come at this also coming at it thinking that this is some… when we are noting the interests of the United States and Western interests in foreign policy to set this up, we are not then endorsing some grand conspiracy theory about Jewish people.
Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah, that's a good point to make. We're actually doing the opposite of that.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah.
Sy Hoekstra: We're saying, unfortunately, like sadly, what I'm saying is, I think the Jewish state and the global Jewish people have been,
Jonathan Walton: Apro—
Sy Hoekstra: like their really genuine cause has been used, has been appropriated as you were about to say.
Jonathan Walton: right.
Sy Hoekstra: They’re pawns in the schemes of America's foreign policy interests. I think that's what it comes down to. By the way, a lot of other... this is not just Israel. Like a lot of times Hamas is a pawn of Iran or Russia. Like a lot of times this is… the Middle East and all these fights, we’ll talk about this more, a lot of people are being used for other people's interests.
That is generally what is happening in so many conflicts in the Middle East, like they are proxy wars for other people and other people's interests. Okay, so Jonathan, you mentioned the importance, and this actually goes nicely into what we were about to talk about, that which is the importance of separating the people of these two countries or of these two places, I guess. Of Israel and Palestine from their governments. Why is that such an important point to you?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I think it's an important point because people are not always in control or responsible for what those who govern and control them do in the world. It's often that they don't agree. It's often that they don't endorse. It's often if they had power, they would actually stop it. But unfortunately because of how our world is ordered, children can't stop what their parents do. Employees can't stop what their bosses and supervisors do. Like if I held a child responsible for the abuse of their parents, then we have a serious problem, because in all of these interactions there's power and resources at play. So to say that a child or their mother is responsible for rockets firing from wherever, and then therefore you can take a missile and destroy that hospital or destroy that ambulance, or destroy that convoy that you just told to go into this corridor, there's serious, serious problems with that.
Similarly, if you are sitting on the other side of the wall downstream of oppression, it is radically unhelpful, radically wrong, to maim and kill and shoot and kidnap people who may not, and particularly an activist that I'm thinking of, she was actually someone who was helping the Palestinians get into hospitals in Israel and get the health care that they need, and she was kidnapped. So I think we have to understand that people are not necessarily endorsers or enforcers of the policies of the governments that govern them.
Sy Hoekstra: Right. And you can't talk about them as monoliths. I mean, like you were just mentioning, there's actually a number of people who were killed or kidnapped by Hamas who were peace advocates, who were actually people who are very much on the side of Palestine. That doesn't matter to Hamas. There’s no difference to them. And it's the same thing. I mean, actually, the Hamas leadership, just a couple days ago The New York Times published an interview with a bunch of the members of Hamas leadership, and the stuff they cop to is unbelievable. I mean, it's like stuff that people kind of already knew about them, but the fact they just come out and say it, like that they absolutely knew what the response of Israel would be to their attack. And they knew that a ton of people would die as a result. And they were just like, “That's just the price that we're paying to get this issue back on the map, basically.” Right?
Jonathan Walton: Right.
Sy Hoekstra: And the specific reason they're doing it was because Israel was attempting to normalize diplomatic relationships with Saudi Arabia and some other Middle Eastern countries, and they didn't want that to happen. They don't want Israel to become normalized in the Arab world, and they want more people talking about Palestine. So they killed a bunch of Israelis and then they knew that as a result, a bunch of their people would die. And that's just like, to them it's just totally is what it is. It's wild. It’s not wild, I guess, it's how a lot of terrorists operate. But on the other side, there are plenty of Israelis and there are plenty of Jews around the world who are completely against what the government of Israel does.
And the government of Israel right now is one of the most far-right, Jewish supremacist governments they've ever had. And so it's… I wholeheartedly agree with the point that you cannot talk about the conflict in a helpful or nuanced way without I think, realizing that.
Jonathan Walton: Right. I also lean into the fact, and this I think, is something we also have to hold tightly, even though it's really, really slippery. Is that even soldiers don't believe in the policies and the actions sometimes that they are forced to carry out. There are a number of IDF soldiers, and reserves and people who have left saying, “I don't want to be a part of this.” And just like you had soldiers coming back from Iraq, coming back from Afghanistan saying, “I thought that I was going for this one thing, and I went for something else. And I ended up fighting for my comrades, like fighting for my battalion. I'm not fighting for this country, I'm caught up in a conflict and I feel like a pawn.”
Because I think we have to lean into the complexities of the power that people have, not just that the power we think they have, the power that we perceive. Because behind every gun, and before every gun is a person. They’re people. The person who's sending the bullet, the person being hit by the bullet, the person that's dropping the bomb, the person that the bomb is dropped on. They’re people, and if we're able to see the image of God and one another, then maybe we could slow down before we dehumanize people and think that violence is justified.
Sy Hoekstra: I think that's a good transition for us into Jonathan, how do we in engage with the issues at hand here without burning out or just trying to avoid the anxiety or trying to ignore it? How do we come at this in an emotionally healthy way? And by the way, I'll note before you answer that, we've mentioned a number of articles and other resources along the way in this conversation, and we will have links to those in the show notes if you want to read anything further. But go ahead, Jonathan.
Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I think that, you know, I gave a talk some years ago, was it two years? It was a year after the march by White supremacists in Charlottesville. So what I said to them was that for some of you, this is your first time engaging with anything about White supremacy and racism and the experiences of Black people and White people in the United States. It's your first time. This is all new to you, all the feels are there. For some of you, you were here when Rodney King was beaten, or you were here when Trayvon Martin was killed, or your first step into this may have happened today, yesterday, or 10, 15 years ago. But regardless of that, we need to be formed into people that are able to respond from our deepest values, not our deepest wounds.
So if you're sitting there, and you're like, “Man, all these images are coming into my feed on social media.” I think, again, we need to treat social media like a garden, not a dumpster fire, because the algorithm is feeding off your outrage and desires your constant engagement. But literally, your heart and mind cannot handle that amount of dissonance and pain and struggle. So we actually have to build in patterns of what it looks like to engage, pray, take a break and engage again. And so if you were sitting there and you're thinking to yourself, “I don't want to be someone who just jumps in and jumps out on my own whims and giggles. I decide to get in when I feel guilty and then I get out when I feel overwhelmed.” That's a doom scrolling cycle that's radically unhelpful.
And we can take this offline and put it in real life, when we disengage from the suffering of people around us and say it's for self-care, or say it’s to take care of ourselves, what we're actually doing is bypassing the suffering of people around us, because we don't have the rhythms necessary to rigorously engage with the world as it is. And so, if we are not going to be people who run to comfort, we have to be people who have done the spiritual, emotional, physical, mental work necessary to have the fortitude to stand in solidarity with ourselves, with the poor and the marginalized, with the family around us, and even our enemies, to be able to see from their perspective so that we are able to love well.
And so I think a couple of ways to do that on social media, is to turn off notifications, and to have people you follow and that you don't follow so that you're able to stay engaged without being overwhelmed. Because if you don't curate your social media, the algorithm will do it for you. So that's just the online stuff. In real life, similarly, who are you going to listen to and talk to, and who are you not going to listen to and talk to, so that you are able to be built up into the person that you want to be for the sake of those who are marginalized and suffering, not just for your own sake to feel comfortable and okay? So I need you to lean into the complexity because I'm not saying avoid all the people who are difficult in your life. That's not what I'm saying.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.
Jonathan Walton: I'm not saying, “Get away from the folks who challenge you.” That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, seek out the people that challenge you in ways that make you better, so that you can love one another well. I have to listen to hard conversations and engage with people who call me out. Because I'm not trying to live a life that where I and my comfort and my self-preservation is the most important priority, because the Gospel says I need to take up a cross. It doesn't tell me to go buy a croissant.
[laughter]
Jonathan Walton: I love bread, and that's my comfort food.
Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: And so that is why I said the cross with a croissant. It wasn't just for the alliteration. [laughs] But God is calling us to make sacrifices, and I think that when we have communities of people who are willing to do that sacrificial work with us, then when the next attack happens, when the next mass shooting happens, we actually have the inner fortitude and the external community to engage with these things for the long term, which is what God is calling us to.
Sy Hoekstra: That is all some very good advice. I don't know that I have things to add on to that, but I have other stuff [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: Sure.
Sy Hoekstra: This has just been important for me when it comes to this particular issue. Actually, it's important for me in a lot of issues, but developing a real understanding and sense of sympathy for the people who disagree with you, to me is really important. So in this particular case, what that means is trying to… it's not even that hard when it comes to Israel honestly, right? Because why is Israel such an appealing idea? It's because Jewish people have faced so many thousands of years of oppression everywhere they've gone. And Israel today has created for the Jews who live there, peace and flourishing that they haven't seen probably since King David, honestly.
And it is just the dream of having a place where your oppressed people can be free and flourish. It's not hard to sympathize with that at all. It's one of the most natural human instincts. The problem is, like Jonathan said before, the way this world is ordered, the easiest way to accomplish that is to trample other people, and is to find somebody like the US whose interests are aligned with you, you know what I mean? Like to go that route. But understanding kind of where people are coming from and how real the fear is, even for people who have been a little bit secure for a few decades. You know, what I mean? How real that fear still remains in people.
So my great grandmother who was alive until I was 24, was half Jewish, and her dad came over as a young kid from Romania. They went through Russia first, but they came over from Eastern Europe fleeing pogroms and anglicized their names, married Christians, went to church, and they erased Judaism from their lives effectively. And my grandma has told me that my great grandmother told her when she was young, to never tell anyone, for any reason that they were Jewish. But the reason they did that was fear. It’s like the fear is so incredibly real, even for people who are living kind of middle class lives in the United States.
And, I don't know, being able to understand that makes the problem to me feel a little bit more comprehensible and it makes it feel like, because it's comprehensible, like something that could theoretically be if not solved, at least you could change people's minds. There are ways around that fear, and like expanding people's sense of solidarity and love for other people who are going through the same thing. That's it, you have to be able to see that what Palestinians are going through at the hands of Israel is the same struggle, is the same thing that Jews have gone through forever. So then when I hear like bad faith arguments, or bad faith readings of history, I have an idea of what's behind it, maybe not for the individual speaker that I'm talking to, but for a lot of people, and that helps.
Another thing that helps is get out there and do something [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: It’s true.
Sy Hoekstra: It really helps to call your representatives to petition, if you can go to a march or protest or something, I did that this weekend. Being with a ton of people who feel the same way as you, or like participating in some kind of movement like that just makes you feel a little bit less isolated and lost and like you're losing your mind because people around you are saying such wild stuff. Any other thoughts Jonathan, before we wrap up?
Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean, for people who are listening to Sy and it’s like, “Okay, how can I capture that?” I think what Sy is saying is something we've talked about in the past where it's like, we have to move from pity and sympathy towards incarnation. So the ability to feel sorry and sad for other people, that’s just pity and sympathy. To look at someone's experience and say, “You know what, that is sorrowful,” right? And sympathy to feel that sorrow for yourself and then empathy to actually be able to imagine like, “Oh man, okay, I can identify with that.” And you watch Sy just do that when he's like, “Okay, I'm not just far away from this, but how can I get a little bit closer? Oh, my great grandma.”
He's moving, he's identifying those feelings. And then he moves to this thing called compassion, where he actually says, “You know what, I'm going to think about, how can I suffer with them, like alongside them, even from the position that I have in Harlem? You know what, I'm going to go and protest. I'm going to put my shoes on and get my family together, and I'm going to walk, and I'm going to actually go be out there.” And if I can get in proximity in some ways to imagine what that compassion will look like and eventually, I'm going to incarnate with the people who are around me that are suffering as well, because I'm sure in that crowd, there are people who are more closely connected than Sy is.
And so the fruit of that is the communal connection that he was just talking about. There's this collective grief that can be released. And when you experience the grief and connection, you're less likely to be violent, because the grief and the pain and the struggle and the push for better has somewhere to go and you have people to do it with.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.
Jonathan Walton: Because we have to seek out community. We have to have these rhythms, like Sy just walked through. We have to create those things to move from dismissal and dehumanization, and whatever all of might be happening inside of us towards pity and sympathy, towards empathy, towards compassion. And then if we can, in Jesus name incarnation, putting ourselves as close as we possibly can, to those who are suffering the most.
Sy Hoekstra: And then when you go at that, like, the emotional health part is part of the incarnation as well, meaning like, because you can go into the grief, and you can get lost in it.
Jonathan Walton: Right.
Sy Hoekstra: And you can find an outlet for that grief in calling for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
Jonathan Walton: Right.
Sy Hoekstra: So I was listening, there's a… I will definitely put this in the show notes. There was a talk, what do you call it? an event [starting at 26:40 in the linked video], that featured a conversation between Michelle Alexander who wrote The New Jim Crow, and Ta-Nehisi Coates, and the professor I mentioned before, Rashid Khalidi. And Coates, I guess, for those who don't know, is a famous Black American writer who writes about racial relations in the US mostly, went to Israel a few years ago, and went to the Holocaust Museum that they have in Jerusalem.
And he went in and felt everything that he felt and then he walked outside and was immediately met with a line of like 10 IDF guards with enormous guns, right? And this is really interesting actually. He talks about how people talk about the situation in Israel like it's so complex, like you need a Middle East Studies degree to really understand what's going on. He's like, “I went there and I understood it in one day.” He's like, “I saw Palestinians not being able to go down certain roads, and they had other roads that they could go down that were not as well kept and whatever.” And he's like, “I know what that is. My parents grew up in Jim Crow, this is not confusing to me.”
But he was like, he kind of said, “Imagine if Black people had gone through the hundreds of years of slavery and Jim Crow and segregation and everything and come out on the other side, and the lesson that they pulled from it was, we just need to get power, it doesn't matter what we do with it as long as we're safe.”
Jonathan Walton: [long inhale] Mmmm, right.
Sy Hoekstra: And he said that’s Israel. Like that's what has happened. And it's just tragic in so many ways. So I think all the things that Jonathan was saying are so important, because this conversation just gets people going in so many different directions because of the trauma that is on both sides. Like the really heavy trauma that is on both sides of the wall in Israel.
Jonathan Walton: I agree. I think there's, when I say and when we say, pursuing community, we are saying that we are trying to pursue a community that is seeking peace.
Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.
Jonathan Walton: That is [laughs] not… Because unfortunately, there is a solid… we may cut this out, but there is a solidarity that exists in exacting violence. And I think the resistance to that is necessary and difficult. And if we're not careful… No, it's exactly what you said.
Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: If we are not careful we will mistake our safety for the really, really, really good fruit as opposed to the collective fruitfulness of everyone being the thing that we long for and seeing it. That's the same thing, that's the exchange that Black slaves made when they became overseers. I will be safe. Those people won't be, but I will be safe. And like Tim Keller would say when he wrote Generous Justice, is that the definition of wickedness is to disadvantage the community for the advantage of yourself. And the definition of justice is to disadvantage yourself for the advantage of the community. And I think my hope would be that continue to push and disadvantage ourselves so that everybody can be free.
Sy Hoekstra: Amen.
Jonathan Walton: Amen.
Sy Hoekstra: That is a hard thing to ask, but nevertheless, I say amen [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: Amen [laughs]. It’s true.
Sy Hoekstra: Before we finish up, well, a couple of things. One, I'm just going to remind you, like Jonathan did at the top. If you appreciate what we're doing here, which you do because you're listening to this, which means you're a subscriber, and we thank you so much for that support, please go and give us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If you're on Apple, leave us a little written review if you can. It helps, it's a very quick thing that you can do that really does genuinely help us. The reviews that we have on our podcast by the way, are so heartwarming and lovely [laughs], and they make me feel so great inside. So if you want to support us and also genuinely just make me feel real nice in my little heart, that'd be great
[laughter]
Sy Hoekstra: Oh, you know what Jonathan, I'm going to start doing what I realized I haven't been doing because… So we have not been crediting Joyce who does our transcripts [laughs].
Jonathan Walton: Oh man.
Sy Hoekstra: I'm going to add Joyce to the list of transcripts. The reason we haven't been crediting her is because when we started the show, we were just doing the transcripts ourselves, and we just got into a rhythm of not crediting ourselves.
[laughter]
Sy Hoekstra: Joyce Ambale. Ambale? Hmm, Joyce is going to have to tell me how to pronounce her last name because I've only ever seen it in writing. Joyce Ambale does our transcripts. Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra, our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess, and we will see you all in December. Thank you so much for listening.
[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]
Sy Hoekstra: We’re going, yeah?
Jonathan Walton: [singing] We are recording now. We are recording now. Yes.
Sy Hoekstra: Okay
Jonathan Walton: Okay [clears throat].
Sy Hoekstra: [inhales for a long time, brrrrs loudly sounding like he’s shaking his head, coughs, clears his throat, kind of growls, and speaks in a loud, hoarse voice]. Ready to go.
Jonathan Walton: [laughs].
Sy Hoekstra: Everyone, I’m normal [laughter]. I make normal noises and there's no need for concern.
